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Research / WW2
| The WW2 forum is intended for asking and discussing reference or historical related issues pertaining to WW2 (1939-1945) subjects. |
| Topics: | 5866 |
| Messages: | 29899 |
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| Subject: | Panzer I Ausf.F of Pz.Abt.z.b.V66 Camouflage |
| Date: | Jun 7, 2019 - 20:45 |
| From: | Paul Owen |
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The Panzer I Ausf.F (and Pz.II J) tanks of Pz.Abt.z.b.V66 (12.Pz.Div.) south of Leningrad late 1942 where painted in tropical colours. According to Panzer Tracts 1-2. These tanks were initially intended to go to Crete. Panzer Tracts states they are painted in Gelbbraun and Graugruen (Buff and Grey Green) which was RAL 8000 and RAL 7008 the first tropical scheme.
The RAL 8000/ RAL 7008 scheme is very low contrast. Looking at these two photos of the actual tanks the scheme shows a lot of contrast. Could this actually be the later Braun (Brown) RAL 8020 / Grau (Grey) RAL 7027 tropical scheme?
![[IMAGE 1]](/forums/attachments/research_ww2/1d0bba26528dd7366c49808b0ba01025_124322.jpg)
![[IMAGE 2]](/forums/attachments/research_ww2/1d0bba26528dd7366c49808b0ba01025_124323.jpg)
I know the second scheme was rare, but it could be on these tanks.
Are there any known photos of other tanks in this later scheme?
Paul.
|
 Paul A. Owen - Track-Link Webmaster.
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| Subject: | Re: Panzer I Ausf.F of Pz.Abt.z.b.V66 Camouflage |
| Date: | Jun 8, 2019 - 11:52 |
| From: | Bob Woodman |
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Paul:
By me, those photos suggest that the tanks were initially painted in Dunkelgrau (which of course was the regulation for "all" AFV at that time) and that they were over-painted with one or another tannish color for camo. Alternatively, we could be seeing a tannish base-coat with something like a middle or darker green, or middle or darker brown, camo over-coat.
I know that folks continually cite the PanzerTracts statements about these 1-F perhaps having been destined first for Crete, and that they were painted in some early tropisch scheme - as you have indicated in your post - before leaving Germany, and then re-routed post-painting to northern Russia. But was this really the case? What info or data or source did PanzerTracts get for this? I'm a fan of PanzerTracts, but remain less-than-fully-convinced of their "complete infallibility" in all things.
FAIK, neither of the 2-color North Africa tropisch schemes actually produced much color-contrast - and none of the model colors folks have used on posted builds seem to lead to any strong color-contrast (i'm NOT saying that any of us modelers have used the absolute "right" colors for those schemes - just commenting to my impression about what they look like). And the pics show very dirty but clearly contrasty tanks - where the underlying evident contrast was probably REDUCED by dirt and dust at time of photographing.
Vehicles photo'd in later 1942 in Russia certainly did exhibit a range of schemes - all-DG of course being the "regulation" monochrome scheme - and various publications have indicated that units re-painted vehicles in available or obtained other colors, used obtained paints as field-applied camo, etc. And doubtless (to me, anyway) there could well have been vehicles sent to Russia in 1942 that had been previously painted up for use in other areas but later diverted to Russia out of need and / or availability (so we accept that some "tropisch - painted" Pz. III and IV were diverted to use in southern Russia, for example) - but all that said, I think that your pics more likely depict a darker vehicle base-coat with some lighter over-painting (or the converse lighter base w/ dark over-coat) - NOT one of the "tropisch" schemes. It's definitely pretty substantial contrast.
Perhaps we are actually looking at a 1943 later-Spring pic...? As the pics taken in winter of 1942 seem to show these 1-F being painted in dark - presumably straight dunkelgrau as I see it). And if these are actually 1943 pics and NOT 1942 pics... we are quite possibly in the dunkelgelb base-coat w/ green or brown or both green and brown camo colors.
Just my opinion, of course!
Bob :-)
PS: Bronco's art interp has it being in a tricolor scheme... I won't say that that would have been likely in later 1942 near Leningrad, but... so their box-art paint scheme would seem to be a 1943 scheme. And I sort of suspect that Bronco could have used one or another of these rare 1-F "camo'd" pics as their guide...
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| Subject: | Thanks for your input |
| Date: | Jun 8, 2019 - 20:13 |
| From: | Paul Owen |
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These photos are from the fall of 1942 before the tanks were used in combat. These first Pz.1F tanks of Pz.Abt.z.b.V66 were modified as in the photos. A large stowage box was added to the left-rear fender along with three jerrycans, the jack was moved to the right-front fender as in these photos.
I suspect they are the tropical brown and grey scheme. That was pretty contrasty. This is what I am going to do. Using John S.'s mix for the brown and Tamiya Nuetral Grey. These tanks got pretty muddy so the paint scheme will be quite muted.
Paul.
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Paul A. Owen - Track-Link Webmaster.
Help improve and support the site: http://www.track-link.com/support-track-link |
| Subject: | I found somthing |
| Date: | Jun 9, 2019 - 22:00 |
| From: | Paul Owen |
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In Osprey's "Modelling the Early Panzerkampfwagen IV" by Tom Cockle he finished a Pz.IVF in the tropical scheme 1 of Yellow Brown/Grey Green and then with a wavy pattern of "Panzer Grey" over this. The tank modelled is from Pz.Div.5 in Russia, 1942.
This does look a lot like the Pz.I F in the photos here. I like it, so I will go with it.
BTW Tom, if you're reading this, where did you see a reference for this scheme?
Paul.
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Paul A. Owen - Track-Link Webmaster.
Help improve and support the site: http://www.track-link.com/support-track-link |
| Subject: | Re: I found somthing |
| Date: | Jun 9, 2019 - 22:53 |
| From: | Bob Woodman |
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Sounds pretty cool... I'll have to find that pub and take a look. From your description, it almost sounds like that IV-F was painted up as if it were a dunkelgrau "reg" tank that had been over-painted with a partial tropisch scheme / with a pattern using the available tropisch colors.
FWIW (little, I am sure): Which sounds a bit more plausible as a route to the evident camo scheme on the 1-F, to me.
Cheers! Bob
PS: looking forward to seeing your 1F get completed.
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| Subject: | Another shot |
| Date: | Jun 15, 2019 - 21:24 |
| From: | Paul Owen |
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Here is another shot of Panzer I Ausf.F (on the right of the Ausf.J) from Pz.Abt.z.b.V66. It looks like this is right after the tanks were delivered to Pz.Abt.z.b.V66 and after they were modified. The Ausf.J had similar modifications, note the large box on the right-rear fender added.
The camouflage looks like the standard Tropical 1 scheme with no added darker colour added yet.
Paul.
![[IMAGE 1]](/forums/attachments/research_ww2/f5b07362d3c015011e5f849db169187c_124585.jpg)
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Paul A. Owen - Track-Link Webmaster.
Help improve and support the site: http://www.track-link.com/support-track-link |
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